Susan Stanton
When WyoHistory.org published its history of the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra in October 2021, the editors realized that there were many more people available to contribute their thoughts and memories of that organization. The American Heritage Center at the University of Wyoming was also interested, and offered to contribute funding to support an oral history project to capture more information on the history of the symphony.
The Casper College Western History Center transcribed most of these interviews. In addition to being available here, at WyoHistory.org, the audio files plus transcripts are also available at the Western History Center and the American Heritage Center.
Thanks to the interviewees for donating their time; to the Casper College Western History Center for transcribing the audio files; to Kylie McCormick for transcribing some of the audio files; to the American Heritage Center for funding the project; and to the trustees of the George Fox Fund, Inc. for donating the use of its Zoom account.
Wyoming Symphony Oral History Project
Rebecca Hein interviewing Susan Stanton, June 23, 2022
Date transcribed: July 26, 2022
Rebecca: Okay, thank you for giving us your time today.
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: Let’s start with you giving us your name and your instrument, and how you came to play that instrument.
Susan: Okay, my name is Susan Stanton. Sorry, what were the other questions?
Rebecca: what your instrument is, and how you came to play that instrument.
Susan: Oh! Okay, I play violin. I play violin thanks to school music programs. I, my parents never, it never occurred to them, to give us music lessons, and, they showed a violin in school, and said we could, get out of a certain class that I hated if we took vio-
Rebecca: (laughs)
Susan: -We took music lessons. And I said, that sounds like-sign me up!
Rebecca: Yeah.
Susan: So, but then it turned out later that I found out my grandfather had played the violin. He died when I was very young, but I didn’t know that. And I’ve got, I’ve inherited some of his music, and he fingered the way that I do, and I don’t know. It’s just weird. But anyway. Hooray for school music programs. [A fingering is a marking in the music indicating which finger should play which note]
Rebecca: Okay yeah. Your other work and education outside of music, just for the background and context.
Susan: Oh, okay. Let’s see, my other work. Well, I did start out in school as a music major. but in college I mean-but I, changed my major when I was a sophomore, I guess, and I have degrees in other things. And, but I kept playing, ‘cause actually my third year, even when I still had a music scholarship, even when I wasn’t a major. I kept playing in the, school orchestra, and, I eventually, I was a newspaper reporter for 20 years, and then I got a library degree, and I was a librarian for 24 years. so I have a masters in library. But I always kept playing. I played in a lot of community orchestras in California, before I moved here to Wyoming, and then once I moved here I joined the Wyoming Symphony.
Rebecca: Yeah, and what year was that, do you recall?
Susan: It was 1994.
Rebecca: Okay. And, do you have memories from those first years with the symphony?
Susan: No, not that many memories. I did, when I first moved here, I didn’t- before I joined the newspaper, I worked part time for the symphony for a couple of months. So I moved here in February ‘94, and I think I worked for the symphony when Dale Bohren was the, manager. For a few months after that, I can’t really remember how many months I worked, it really wasn’t that long, and then I joined the newspaper. That was my strongest memory. He really kind of laid out what the symphony and Casper were all about. So that was, one time.
Rebecca: Okay.
Susan: And, uh-
Rebecca: Go ahead.
Susan: Oh! the symphony itself, yeah, I really liked it. I, I thought it was a good group, and, they played a lot, and, took it seriously, I thought. at the time, although once we got other conductors I realized we didn’t. And at that time it was a lot more of a community group than it is now. There were some imports, but they were, kind of local imports, I guess you would say, in-state people. So, you know, I met people then that I still know today. that was great.
Rebecca: Yeah, okay so, you were in the symphony from 1994, until, Curtis Peacock left? That would’ve been in the early 2000s, I believe.
Susan: Yeah, no, actually I was in the symphony, I-I was there all through the Jonathan Shames era.
Rebecca: Okay.
Susan: The early, 2000s. And I was there the first couple years of the Matthew Savery era. And then I, left, for the sake of my mental health. (chuckles) And uh-
Rebecca: Ooohhh.
Susan: (chuckles more) And then I rejoined immediately after he left. And I’ve been in ever since. So I was out, for about five years, I believe.
Rebecca: So you rejoined when Christopher Dragon became music director?
Susan: Yes. Well in the year- the year they did the search I rejoined actually.
Rebecca: Ah. Okay. I’m writing this down so I don’t-
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: -Ask you things twice. Um-
Susan: Sure.
Rebecca: Okay, let me back up to, the ‘90s, before the Jonathan Shames, oh right, the search year, I wanted to ask you about that, and then I-
Susan: Okay.
Rebecca: Do you remember, any particular concert, or year, that stood out for you before the ‘90s, before Jonathan Shames came on board, or before the year of the search? Does anything stand out?
Susan: Let’s see. My two strongest memories, wa- The strongest memory is when, André Bohren played Rhapsody In Blue with us. [Rhapsody in Blue, by George Gershwin, 20th century American composer and pianist. The Rhapsody, for solo piano and orchestra, combines elements of classical music with jazz effects] That was a very meaningful concert, ‘cause I knew the family a bit, and it was just amazing that André went from playing Für Elise [a famous student piece by Beethoven] to playing Rhapsody In Blue. So it was crazy, and it was a very good concert. Just very meaningful. And we did runouts occasionally, and we went to, God, was it Riverton? I guess it was? Lander or Riverton [Wyoming]. We played in a pit orchestra-
Rebecca: Right.
Susan: -but, yeah.
Rebecca: Sleeping Beauty Ballet, I think.
Susan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that was a very fun concert, and it was fun to do a runout. I mean, I know it’s, expensive and out of reach, but, ideally I wish that was what the symphony did. So, that was good to do something that, I wish we could do all the time.
Rebecca: Yeah, it costs money but it’s-it’s very good to bring, the-that, uh-
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: -quality of a product to the rest of the state, however-
Susan: Exactly.
Rebecca: -much. Yeah, Let’s just back up briefly. You mentioned André Bohren, and you mentioned Rhapsody In Blue. Could you say just a little bit more about Rhapsody In Blue, including maybe the composer and-
Susan: Oh, okay.
Rebecca: And that sort of thing?
Susan: Sure. Okay. Well, Rhapsody In Blue is a piano concerto by George Gershwin, it’s United Airlines’ advertising theme, if you don’t know what it is. ‘Course by the time anyone looks at this, no one will know what United Airlines is, but- (laughs)
Rebecca: (laughs back)
Susan: It’s a, you know, one of the most famous American pieces, and, not the most difficult thing in the repertoire, but, a pretty, if you’re a beginning piano student, that is, that is, an amazing thing to be able to play. It’s, you know, not an easy piece, but it’s very very beautiful, and it’s one of the, exemplary American works. So, it’s a joy to play with anybody, but, especially to play with a beginning student who ... rockets out of nowhere, and can play it. It’s a great experience.
Rebecca: And, do you remember if the audience liked it especially?
Susan: Oh, yes. Yes, they did. Okay, well of course the other thing I’m leaving out is the Moody Blues. That was-that was another big experience from the ‘90s. we did two concerts with them, one in ... September ‘94, and then another one in ‘99. Both of those were amazing. And the audience went, you know, that was kind of when, pop groups were just starting to play with community orchestras. Well that was very exciting for the audience and we played at the [Casper] Events Center, and we were all electrified, our instruments were you know, they put mics on them and it gives a kind of resonance that you don’t normally feel in orchestra, so it was, you know, the closest thing to being a rock musician. That was amazing, and the, you know, Nights in White Satin, everybody turned on their lighters [in the days] before cell phones-
Rebecca: (chuckles back)
Susan: Ah! You know I just thought, “Wow! Wouldn’t it be great if, you know, people would do that for, like, the slow movement in Beethoven’s Seventh.” Bring out their lighters, you know.
Rebecca: Ah.
Susan: That was, just a beautiful experience, connecting with the audience like that.
Rebecca: You mentioning the Moody Blues concert puts me in mind of, the fact that we had microphones on our instruments, and headphones that we had to wear. Did the violins have to wear a pair of headphones too?
Susan: No. There were too many of us. We didn’t wear headphones.
Rebecca: Oh, so you didn’t have to cope with listening to yourself through the headphones?
Susan: No!
Rebecca: Okay. Well then you don’t have to comment on that.
Susan: Oh!
Rebecca: Okay. Well that’s cool.
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: Okay, so there were two Moody Blues concerts, one in ‘94 and one in ‘99. Were they essentially the same, or-? was one better than the other, or better attended, or more memorable?
Susan: I think the first one was more memorable. It was more their greatest hits. and, just at that time, that was such a new concept. It was kind of far out for people to go to a rock concert and hear a rock band. Go to an orchestra concert and hear a rock band. But in ‘99, that had been done before, and also in ‘99, Moody Blues had a new album out called English Sunset, and we had to play some of the stuff from their new album.
Rebecca: Oh!
Susan: Which was good, but it wasn’t what people were expecting, so, the audience reaction was a lot more muted than the first concert, I felt like.
Rebecca: Aha. Now that makes sense. Okay. So then, do you have memories-are you done with that? I don’t want to interrupt you if you have more to say.
Susan: Those are the ones that pop-pop up immediately. There’s probably others if-
Rebecca: Okay, well if you remember them later you can bring them up.
Susan: Okay.
Rebecca: Okay, and then there was the search year.
Susan: Yes.
Rebecca: Where different conductors played concerts, basically auditioning.
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: What do you remember about that year?
Susan: That was an exciting year. That was so fun, because the orchestra had been, I mean, even if you have a conductor that’s amazing, after 20 years, it’s, you know, it’s, great to play with somebody new, and I think that was a time when people realized, “oh wow, we could be something different.” You know, we could be better. We can-there’s more here than we thought there was. ‘cause all the conductors were good, actually. Any one of them would’ve been great.
Rebecca: Mhmm.
Susan: And most of them, I-you know, I kind of looked later, and most of them went on to other orchestras and did other things, so. I was very happy about it, and it was a very exciting time.
Rebecca: It must’ve been really fun, every concert different because with a different conductor and-
Susan: Yes.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Susan: Yeah, and it was funny, you know, adjusting to how, to different conductors and some of them conduct really small, and (laughs)
Rebecca: Ahhh.
Susan: We’d try to find where the down [downbeat] is, and, so that was, you know, we had to adjust as well. Besides, you know, there’s kind of a feeling of, if you’re playing for a guest, you want to be the best you can be ‘cause you want to, you know, have some pride in your organization, so, I think-
Rebecca: Yeah.
Susan: I think there might’ve been a little slacking off, under Curtis, just because we were used to him, and, he didn’t scare us anymore.
Rebecca: Yeah. Okay. So then Jonathan Shames was, selected at the end of that year, and you, played under him?
Susan: Yes I did.
Rebecca: Okay. What can you tell us about that time?
Susan: That was, yeah, he, you know, whatever people say about the orchestra today, he really built that foundation, I feel. A lot of people did not like him. He could be a little short-tempered, but, I liked him a lot, and I think he- I didn’t take what he said personally. I don’t think it was meant personally. I think, you know, I think a lot of the older conductors, that’s the way they were trained, and they didn’t know any better, kind of. You know, he didn’t- but he was sooo good. He was a really good conductor. Really very clear, and really did some basics with the orchestra to kind of, with intonation, and with dynamics. and also picked a good repertoire, I thought. also, he did his pre-concert talks. He would do them in the library, and I worked at the library at the time, and I coordinated with him. so maybe I had a better understanding than a lot of people, of what he was aiming at, because I had to go to all the talks. I was, managing it, um-
Rebecca: I have a question, but not unless you’re done, or paused.
Susan: I’m done I guess.
Rebecca: Okay. You used a couple of musician’s terms that I would like you to clarify please. one of them is intonation-
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: -and the other one was dynamics.
Susan: Dynamics. Okay, intonation means playing in tune, and, dynamics means soft and loud. And a lot of the time, a lot of people in the orchestra are school teachers, and if they get used to playing in their school orchestras where everything is the same, the same dynamic. It’s this continuous loud sound, and they- So anyway, it’s just reminding, oh yeah, we’re adults, we can do this stuff, you know, we don’t have to play this.
Rebecca: Ah.
Susan: We can play better, just kind of pay attention.
Rebecca: Uh-huh.
Susan: Well, I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s the reason, that’s my crackpot theory.
Rebecca: (laughs heartily) Okay, so, it sounds like Shames was quite straightforward and he talked to the orchestra, to tell them what they needed to do and wasn’t, um- didn’t try to be- I don’t know how to say this, tactful? I’m not accusing the man of being tactless, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a conductor asking what he wants from a group, and telling them what he needs. I mean, we’re there because the conductor’s the boss, and to improve, so.
Susan: Right.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Susan: Right. I just addressed him- Sorry, go ahead.
Rebecca: No, it’s alright, you go ahead.
Susan: I just contrast him with somebody like Christopher Dragon, who’s extremely tactful.
Rebecca: Ah.
Susan: I mean, he asks for what he wants, but he says it in a very very polite way, and I think that’s, just kind of the trend today, and older people are, in my experience, have not been as careful- -as he is today, so.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Susan: And I think some musicians, you know, the conductor will say, “the section is not in-tune,” and they’ll feel like, “oh, he’s saying I’m a bad player,” you know, no. (chuckles again) That’s not what he’s saying.
Rebecca: Uh-huh.
Susan: But, some people take it that way.
Rebecca: Yeah, well, it’s probably a ticklish job conducting an orchestra, because you’ve got all sorts of people under you, and-
Susan: Right. Well that’s the whole, exactly, well that’s the whole miracle of an orchestra. It’s, you know, like Claude Abreu, A-B-B-R-E-U, Gustavo Dudamel’s mentor, you know, says that’s the miracle of an orchestra. It’s 100, you know, 100 people trying to do one thing, and that’s, very hard, and when it happens it’s amazing.
Rebecca: Well, and you have to think about who those hundred people are.
Susan: Yes.
Rebecca: They’ve all worked really hard to learn their instrument, and they’ve all got their own musical style and they’re all having to blend, and-
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: -and obey the boss.
Susan: Yep.
Rebecca: Whether they agree or not, or respect him or her or whatever.
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: Yep.
Susan: Exactly.
Rebecca: Great, okay. Well, so, let’s see. From the Shames years, do you have a memorable concert, or any stand out experience?
Susan: The Ninth Symphony that we played.
Rebecca: Beethoven.
Susan: ‘cause that was-Beethoven’s Ninth Sym-thank you, yes. Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony, the Choral Symphony-
Rebecca: Mhmm.
Susan: -that has Ode To Joy at the end. I know you know this, but, I’ll say it for the- uh,
Rebecca: That’s fine.
Susan: Yeah. And it’s, it’s just a transcendent symphony. I had not played it before, I think, it had been felt that we, that the orchestra might have been incapable of it. It was kind of a hard song, but it came out beautifully. my mechanic was standing behind me singing, so I just had this great feeling of the community coming together, to produce this beautiful thing. This beautiful, amazing thing. And, it was-it was an incredible experience. Um-
Rebecca: Well it is. Oh sorry, I’ll wait.
Susan: No. I’m done.
Rebecca: Well, it is a very very difficult piece, and being a cellist, I always wonder how the low strings get when they’re featured, especially in the last movement. Do you remember, in general, how the performance went, and especially, when, I mean you’ll have to have a very strong cello and bass section to bring on the last movement.
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: How did it go, do you remember?
Susan: Well, Jonathan said at the end, “I want to wait a couple years and do this again.” He felt like, I mean, it, that it was, it went well for our first run, but that, you know, now that we had played it, we knew how to play it- there was another level we could get to. The symphony played it under Matthew Savery, and I was not in that concert, but I watched it, and there, it- just felt so heart- it just felt so soulless. I don’t know, it was all about fast tempos and there wasn’t, it just didn’t have musicality, I felt. It was all about showing off how fast people could play, I felt. And I felt like this one in comparison, maybe not as technically skilled, but, it just, I thought it was more beautiful. I don’t know.
Rebecca: Well, it’s very interesting that you should say that because, I recall when I was in graduate school in Northwestern University, we had a conductor who was a world-class clarinetist.
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: I mean, he was one of the best musicians on the planet. And he was a stickler for, a steady beat,
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: -And I mean, a stickler. I’m telling you, he was, that was, he just insisted on it all the time. I played under him a lot and then the next year I was still in the area so I went to hear the University Orchestra, and I might as well have just turned on a metronome and sat there in my living room and just listened to the metronome.
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: You know, and, it was just so, soulless, really. I-it was just, very mechanical, and it’s amazing now, what it takes to be a musician.
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: As opposed to somebody that just beats time.
Susan: Yes.
Rebecca: So. This is very interesting. okay, so, you did the Ninth, Beethoven’s Ninth-
Susan: The Ninth, yeah, oh, let me think of some other things. we did some-we did some more runout concerts. We played in, Sheridan a few times. pop- just pops concerts. you know, Copland's Rodeo, Aaron Copland, (duh-duh-duh-duh duh-duh duh-duh-duh-duh da-da-duh-duh-da-da-dah-dah-dah-da) [Aaron Copland, 20th century American composer and conductor]
Rebecca: Yeah. Copland’s Hoedown [from his ballet, Rodeo].
Susan: Yeah, that one. Hoedown and all that stuff, and that was another thing of bringing something to an audience that was really hungry to have a big orchestra come out and play. and it was a beautiful setting, it was, the, oh God, what’s his name? Malcolm Wallop’s Ranch.
Rebecca: A-oh!
Susan: Very very beautiful setting. It was very fun to play there. Even though, you know, as a musician, outdoor concerts can be, you know, your strings go out of tune because of the weather, and all that crazy stuff, but even despite that, it was a wonderful experience.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Susan: Oh! Well, and another, thing that was interesting about Jonathan was, oh yeah, there were some really good - there were some funny moments. Jonathan played with us, in one concert, piano. He was an excellent, excellent pianist. And he was at the end of a solo, and he forgot he forgot the very end of it, so he just played the same note and kept going da-da-da-da-da-da-da- and then he nodded, and then the orchestra came in. (laughs heartily) So I’m not sure if the audience caught on to what had happened, but, we were terrified, but,
Rebecca: (laughs heartily) I could imagine.
Susan: But, I think it worked out. And it was kind of one of those moments where you go, “oh yeah, even the big guys can screw up sometimes,” So that was, you know, and we kind of stuck together and hung out. That was good. He had, Jonathan had Becky Mothersbaugh and Jennifer Cowell do the Bach Double Violin Concerto, and he played harpsichord with them, and then the orchestra accompanied of course, and he directed and played harpsichord. That was great. I really liked that he kind of shared his instrument with us. I thought that was really really neat. He had, one of the Christmas concerts, he had his father, who is a Jewish Cantor, come and sing some Hanukkah Festivity music, and played that with us. and that was beautiful and interesting, and his father was a character and a great singer. and I remember there were some people who objected to having a, not in the orchestra, some of the audience members, objected to having Hanukkah music at a Christmas concert, and
Rebecca: (dejected “oh”)
Susan: But the board stuck up for him, and they did it anyway, so that was great.
Rebecca: Let’s see. you mentioned the harpsichord. Could you describe that instrument a bit?
Susan: Yes. Oh, okay. A harpsichord is, the precursor of the piano. The strings are plucked. The mechanism in a piano, the piano key hammers the string to make sound. A harpsichord, it plucks the strings. So it makes a kind of different sound. So it’s a sound you heard with early music [music before the time of Johann Sebastian Bach, 1685-1750]. And ... this was just before, there were kind of mechanical keyboards with harpsichords. He played a real harpsichord that Casper College had. So there were a lot of issues with keeping it in-tune and all that, but, it worked out, and, sounded great. And again that was still the era- I mean there were import musicians, but not as great a percentage as today, so, and, there was a real feeling of, you know, Wyoming people creating something beautiful.
Rebecca: Yeah, I remember in the ‘90s when I was in the orchestra, we always had our standard import people that really, they were almost always all from Wyoming, and they-
Susan: Yes.
Rebecca: -almost always all came up for every concert. They were really, in a sense, part of the orchestra. They just didn’t happen to live in Casper.
Susan: Exactly, Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause it was almost always the same group every time. So, yeah, it felt like they were part of us.
Rebecca: So that began to change, when, approximately?
Susan: Well, it started to change under Savery. It really changed a lot under Christopher.
Rebecca: Okay, so the big transition, away from community group would’ve been under Dragon, and not under, um-
Susan: No! I think it started under Savery, but it-it-it accelerated under Christopher.
Rebecca: Okay.
Susan: You know, to be fair, Jonathan did fire one community member who really was not very good. And that was seen as very controversial, but, boy, was that the right decision. So, that was that, I can’t even think of his name. That clarinet player. Anyway, the guy couldn’t figure out how to transpose, and it’s like, you have to do that. I mean, that's ridiculous, so. So that may’ve been the beginning, but, I would say it was, I would say it started under Jonathan, it accelerated under Savery, and then really accelerated with Christopher Dragon. [Clarinet is a B flat instrument, which means that when a B flat instrument plays a C major scale, it will sound the same as the B Flat scale on a piano. This will create completely wrong notes, and it’s necessary for the clarinetist to know how to mentally transpose as he or she plays. To transpose is to exactly copy exactly a passage of music, starting the passage on a different pitch.]
Rebecca: Okay, regarding Dragon, I want-
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: -to talk on this. I have gathered that, because he is a conductor, or the conductor down in Colorado, in Denver, ... his presence in Casper is attracting a lot of ambitious graduate students who want him to notice them.
Susan: Sure, oh yeah. Absolutely.
Rebecca: At an audition, yeah.
Susan: Oh yeah.
Rebecca: And at first they come up here to beat the locals, who are not graduate students practicing five hours a day, or six hours a day.
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: So, I guess it’s a trade-off. You want a good, non-resident conductor, and this is the sort of thing that can happen.
Susan: Yeah. Yeah. Well and then the issue is, you know, he’s got a, I mean, great for today, but he’s got a two year contract when he goes away. Are these people gonna want to play with whoever we get? That’s a long drive. I don’t think they are. And, uh-
Rebecca: Hmm.
Susan: So then the locals haven’t been nurtured, so then, you know, there’s gonna be a hole. But-
Rebecca: You know, somebody whom I will not name, told me that he thought local talent should continue to be encouraged and nurtured, and took it to the board and they just, basically, shot it down. ‘Cause they were more interested in just having the best orchestra they could.
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: So.
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: I mean, there’s not gonna be a lot of local people to draw on if something-
Susan: Exactly.
Rebecca: -Isn’t done with encouragement. Yeah.
Susan: Yeah. Well, we did a concert, yeah. That was, we did a concert with the college people this year, where we deliberately had, it was called, “Master and Teacher,”-
Rebecca: Mm.
Susan: -something, and we had a lot of college students play with us. And I think that might’ve been an eye-opening experience for our conductor, because it ended up, several of the college students ended up playing with us for the rest of the year. And, you know, he might’ve gone, “oh, yeah, there’s some good people here too,” you know. Duh. But, but, they were, you know, the college students didn’t even try to audition for the orchestra ‘cause they ... weren’t encouraged to, and, you know, maybe made to feel like they weren’t good enough, or whatever, and then when they played with us, you know, the conductor realized, oh yeah, they are good enough, so. I don't know. I don’t know if that will-that revelation will stick, but, I hope it does.
Rebecca: Well, you know, this rehearsal schedule that was taken up when, the, switch was made to non-resident conductors, where it’s a very compressed schedule,
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: What was it? Is it? Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and then a Saturday night concert?
Susan: Right. and then a local string rehearsals on Tuesdays!
Rebecca: Yeah, well, you know, the better students in the community, if they made it into All State Honors Orchestra, or All Northwest Honors Orchestra, that’s really, pretty much what they had to do. You know, you have to pull together a performance in very few rehearsals, in a very intensive experience.
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: But, that has not seemed to occur to, necessarily some of the people, that have been in charge, from what I’ve gathered. That there is talent in the community, and people have had to, you know, in just a few days, be ready to perform.
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: Yeah. Okay, well let’s see. So you played under Savery for a little while, but it was just not what you wanted, I take it. I won’t ask you for particulars unless you want to give them, um.
Susan: Oh, sure, he’s yeah, he’s well the- and first of all, the way he was selected. It kind of came to that, it’s so, so Jonathan, like I say, I think the first three years he was great, the last couple of years, especially the last year, he was kind of phoning it in. And not because of any animosity he felt to the orchestra or anything, he just had his own life going on. He basically transitioned, to living in, Oklahoma. And he became the head of the opera programs for the University of Oklahoma, so that’s a pretty big job, and he’d never done that before, and he was finding his real slot which was academia. That was really the best fit for him and his career. But, since he was letting his contract run out, he suggested Matthew Savery. I don’t know where they knew each other or if they knew each other. I don’t think they knew each other very well, but, I think that was his way of trying to insure the orchestra, and kind of get out of it, and get on to the next phase of his life. The problem was that the board did not do another search. They just hired Matthew, kind of on the spot, and didn’t do the checking they should’ve done. And, and that led to some real problems down the road. Um-
Rebecca: Right.
Susan: -and the orchestra was not happy about him being selected that way, but, the board didn’t care what we thought about it, so, and it was, you know, they saved all sorts of money by doing it that way, and so that was that. And, you know, I’ll say the good things about Matthew. He was a decent conductor. Nothing to write home about, but okay. He was really good at, [indisdinguishable] donors and getting money. He was really good at that. Jonathan was not good at that. And he [Savery], and when the orchestra ran-went into financial reverses in 2008, he stuck with it. And he took a pay cut, so, you know, he basically said, “the orchestra is not going down on my watch,” so,-
Rebecca: Hmmm.
Susan: I give him credit for that. That was, he was, he might’ve been a good guy, would be the-some other function, some other administrative function, but-
Rebecca: (dejected “oh.”)
Susan: - but, as a musician, kind of mediocre, and, really a bully.
Rebecca: You’re the second person I’ve heard say that. That he was a bully.
Susan: Yeah. Yes.
Rebecca: On the podium and off-
Susan: Yes.
Rebecca: -because the other person who said it to me was, at one time, had to work with him pretty closely, not as a musician.
Susan: Right. Yeah, exactly.
Rebecca: That’s bad.
Susan: Yeah. Oh yeah. He bullied the board. Which was, crazy. But, yeah. So, again, it’s the kinda thing, you know, people probably took it personally, but he’s just one of those guys that bullies everybody. And, you know, so, after a few years I just felt like, you know, I had nightmares for two weeks after one of our last concerts, and like I say, I’m-
Rebecca: (Muffled and inaudible speech)
Susan: I’m the kind of person that doesn’t take things personally. You know, I can be a, you know, you’ve kind of heard me making fun of people that take things personally, but, he was such a bully that it got to me. And I had nightmares for two weeks, and then after that I said, this is not worth it. I’m-
Rebecca: Right.
Susan: -I’m a part time musician. This isn’t my full time job. I don’t have to be in the symphony to, get credentials or anything, so I move to doing, I, played in other orchestras, I played for Casper College musicals, and I- (trails off)
Rebecca: It’s so interesting that conducting really must be a combination of good baton technique, you know, the ability to give a clear beat, and, indicate what you want musically,-
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: -and people skills. I mean, you get a conductor who’s a bully and, it just doesn’t work.
Susan: Right.
Rebecca: Or who doesn’t respect the orchestra. Maybe that comes down to pretty much the same thing.
Susan: Right.
Rebecca: Well, interesting, okay. So, then between Savery and Dragon did the board do a search, or did they just go straight to Dragon?
Susan: No, they did a search. They did a search, and as soon as Savery left, I rejoined.
Rebecca: Oh right, I have this down. And how-
Susan: Yes.
Rebecca: -was that year of the search?
Susan: That was another really exciting year. It’s-and, the level of talent. There are a lot of great conductors out there looking for a job. I mean, the people that are looking for a Wyoming job, are looking for like a supplemental job to their main job. but there’s some amazing talent out there. And again, I felt like ... any of the five conductors that we interviewed would’ve been great. There were no women in that group, that time. There was one woman in the group selected. So that was a drag, but it was, a very interesting group of people, and, Jerry how or ho? H-O-W? The guy that is the assistant conductor for the, Grand Teton Music Festival,-
Rebecca: Mm.
Susan: -worked with us also. And that was a wonderful experience. He’s a really good conductor. We kind of wanted him, but, you know, he wasn’t applying for the job unless he was interested in it. And yeah and there were-and that year, the two conductors that stood out to me were Christopher, of course, and then the other guy, Thomas Heuser? H-E-U-S-E-R. I’m not sure how you pronounce it. I think it’s, “Hoy-ser.” And he conducts the Idaho Falls Symphony, and there’s, and two other community symphonies. And he was a very strong candidate. And, a lot of us felt that if Christopher didn’t take it, Thomas would’ve taken it. And, either one of them would’ve been a wonderful choice, and the other three would’ve been good as well.
Rebecca: Okay, Let’s talk about the music that you played during those years. Do you remember some of the pieces? Maybe-
Susan: The-
Rebecca: (inaudible) -or whatever?
Susan: during the search, or?
Rebecca: Or whenever. Just, anytime after Savery began, and, just up to whenever you want to.
Susan: Gosh. (coughs) There’s so many good things. I should’ve brought a roster to remember them. I guess, recently, I would think of, Julia Louise Esther? The symphony that was, composed for the Wyoming Symphony?
Rebecca: Mhmm.
Susan: That was a really neat experience, playing something that no one else had played before and kind of figuring all of that out, and, doing a contemporary piece, um. That wasn’t off-putting at all, it was, you know, fresh and contemporary-sounding, but, very beautiful and interesting. That was a great experience. Playing pops concerts with Christopher was always fun. That’s his real strength.
Rebecca: Oh really?
Susan: Is, pops, and kind of connecting pops with (clears throat) you know, not just kind of blowing it off. He’s gotten a lot of gigs around the country, like conducting films. Those concerts where they play the film and the orchestra plays the score. He’s very strong in that area. We haven’t done that, but Christopher Dragon is also known for, there was a video that went viral of him, where he’s dressed as a dinosaur, conducting Jurassic Park.
Rebecca: (reels in laughter)
Susan: So, (laughs hysterically) So yeah, if you, go to YouTube and Google “Dinosaur Conducts Jurassic Park,” you’ll see him. That was a concert he did for the Colorado Symphony.
Rebecca: That’s really funny!
Susan: It is really funny! Uh-
Rebecca: (continues laughing hysterically)
Susan: (chuckles heartily) So, you tell people, you know, Christopher Dragon, well nobody knows who he is, but then you say it’s the gu-it’s the-
Rebecca: It’s the dinosaur.
Susan: -the dinosaur that conducted Jurassic Park, “Oh that guy!,” you know. Every everybody knows who that is.
Rebecca: Well, so, so let’s go back to his pops concerts. Do you remember? I mean, there are so many pieces that qualify for, pops concert repertoire. Can you give me some idea of the sorts of pieces that Dragon programmed?
Susan: Oh, you know, John Williams “Star Wars”, “Jurassic Park,” He didn’t dress up for that part.
Rebecca: (Mockingly sad “awww”)
Susan: I know.
(both chuckle)
Susan: I know, what a drag. And last year, we did a lot of, kind of Ella Fitzgerald jazz things with a singer. It was really good. [I’m] blanking on her name, I’m sorry, I’m blanking on particular pieces.
Rebecca: That’s all right. This gives me some idea.
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: Yeah I don't think, when I was in the symphony, I’m thinking now way back in the ‘70s, of course “Star Wars” and-
Susan: Yeah. It was new then, yeah. (chuckles)
Rebecca: Yeah, um.
Susan: Yeah. Now it’s like classical music.
Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah, well, with the London Symphony, it really does, go very well.
Susan: Right. Right.
Rebecca: Yeah. And Vaughan Williams wrote the score, right? Ralph Vaughan Williams? Or no-was it?
Susan: No, John Williams. [John Williams, American composer and conductor]
Rebecca: Okay. Great, okay, so, let’s see. I think I am ready to ask you, unless you have-I don’t want to stifle you if you want to say other things, before I ask another question.
Susan: Let’s see. No, I guess not. If I think of it later-
Rebecca: You can just pipe up with it. About the Dragon years,
Susan: Mhmm?
Rebecca: Can you kind of sum it up, from the standpoint of your experience? Particularly high points and really fun concerts?
Susan: Okay, I would say, every concert with Christopher is fun. He is soooo dynamic, so exciting, so young. Everything is new for him. So it’s kind of like being in a youth orchestra almost, where everything you play is new, and you’re excited about it, and it’s really great. From the audience, he looks very flamboyant. He looks like, a little like, Bernstein used to look? [American conductor Leonard Bernstein]
Rebecca: Hmm.
Susan: But within that, he’s very tightly controlled. He’s cuing everything. [To cue is to clearly indicate to a musician or section when to enter the music after a period of rest] He’s a “cuing machine,” you know? And keeping a very steady beat. He does a little trick where he’ll hum a pop song under his breath, and that’s how he gets the tempo for whatever classical piece we’re playing, and, it sounds goofy, but it works. He’s on-tempo all the time. and not a metronome, but he’s, it’s a very consistent tempo, so that’s really neat. Let’s see, as far as, some of the fun concerts, uh. Well, we did Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony and survived, so that was that was good. You know, that’s always a challenge ‘cause everybody knows that one. So you really can’t, screw up and get away with it. So. Uh.
Rebecca: Right.
Susan: People [musicians] love it and dread it at the same time. So. But, that was very successful. I’m sure there were others, I’m just kind of blanking.
Rebecca: Well sure, Beethoven’s Fifth is-
Susan: Hmm.
Rebecca: -a masterpiece, and, a memorable-
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: -experience every time a person plays it-
Susan: Yes. Oh! I’ll tell you another thing he’s done, is, well, trying to-he’s-he’s kind of going with the theme of the times where he’s trying to include, you know, women composers and composers of color. We did, a piece by a Black woman composer that was very charming, very pretty piece. “Dances in the Canebrakes.” Super fun piece, that, and it was orchestrated by William Still, a Black composer, and we’re gonna play a piece by him, William Still, next year. So I like that he’s kind of paying attention to that, and and, finding some good repertoire that’s not in the standard repertoire, but kind of introducing that, and kind of getting our audiences’ feet wet, a little bit in that. [Canebrakes is by Florence Beatrice Price, 20th century American classical composer]
Rebecca: Well, you know, my sole and only objection to music composed after about 1920,-
Susan: (laughs heartily)
Rebecca: -is that it didn’t have, it didn’t make me keep wanting to listen to it. It’s like a book. Does it make me keep wanting to read it? Does it-
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: -make me want to keep listening to it? Or, you know, like a painting. Does it-
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: -make me stay there standing at it because I'm just hypnotized? Mesmerized? So, that’s always been my standard.
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: Ugly or whatever, it’s just not going to inspire me, sorry.
Susan: Mm.
Rebecca: I think audiences in general feel that way. And I don’t regard it as-I don’t know, catering to lower taste, or something like that. Everybody has their own point of view on this. What’s your point of view?
Susan: Well, my point of view is that, we can’t just keep playing the 19th century forever and ever. I mean, we’re two centuries on at this point. and composers are doing other things. I think we need to, let the audience listen, and, you know, make their own decisions. I mean, people love “The Rite of Spring” now [ballet by Igor Stravinsky, 20th century Russian composer and conductor with French and American citizenship] They hated it at the time.
Rebecca: (laughing) Right. It was a shocker. I remember, reading that in music history.
Susan: Yeah! Well I wish people would care that much now. You know, I mean, okay, a riot [the audience rioted at the Paris premiere of Rite of Spring] isn’t the greatest thing to happen at a concert, but at least they’re listening, and, caring about it. You know, just- (laughs again)
Rebecca: Yeah. Expressing their-
Susan: I’d almost rather have that than just polite indifference. and I think people can be surprised at, if they give it a chance, how much they’ll like and appreciate the newer stuff. Or, you know, now that this, you know, “Dances in the Canebrakes” was composed in the 1950s, it sounds like it was composed in the 1920s. It has a very, kind of Jazz-age flapper kind of sound, but, I found it very very charming, and very retro, kind of, and, the fact that it was composed by a Black woman. You know, I think you would’ve wanted to listen to it regardless. So I think that, I think we have to not be a museum, you know. I think we’ve gotta, go on and find things. I mean, like, John Adams is crazy good. I’ve loved everything I’ve heard of his. he’s the guy that did “Nixon in China,” the opera. [John Adams, 20th century American composer and conductor]
Rebecca: Oh.
Susan: So, I think there’s people out there, and I think we have to, I think the way we’re doing it now, is, pretty standard in other orchestras, which is, you have the war horses, and then you kind of sandwich them with a modern piece in the middle so the audience can’t leave, you know.
Rebecca: Yeah, they want to hang around for the-
Susan: Yeah. Yeah, so they have to hang out-they have to listen to something else to get their treat at the end. But, but I think things are changing in other places. I mean, Los Angeles [the Los Angeles Philharmonic] is really getting sophisticated about modern music, so hopefully, eventually, that’ll translate. I mean the, you know, the classics are great. They’re still great. People will still wanna listen to them, but, there’s other stuff too. So, that’s great for everybody. There’s more music, we’ll want to come out and listen, and I hope that doesn’t go away. I mean, the COVID time was pretty scary for that, but, maybe it made people appreciate live music more. It certainly made me appreciate live music more. I mean, Zoom is wonderful, and I’m grateful that it exists, but, you can’t-nothing duplicates being in a hall with musicians.
Rebecca: Mhmm. That’s true. Yeah, that was a very difficult interlude for all perf-well everybody, but performing musicians, or performers-
Susan: Yes.
Rebecca: -in general. Yeah. It's good that it's over.
Susan: Knocked on-knock on wood.
Rebecca: Right.
Susan: Hope it is. (laughs)
Rebecca: We’ll hope it’s over.
Susan: Yes.
Rebecca: (clears throat) Okay, well we’ve covered quite a lot of ground. Do you have anything to add before we wind up?
Susan: No. I guess I’ll I think you were hinting at this, and maybe I already said it, but, and you kind of said it in your article, [history of the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra, published by WyoHistory.org] but yeah, the trend in our orchestra, just since I have been there has definitely been ... from a mostly local group, to a group where about a third of the orchestra is local, and the rest is, import musicians, most of whom are out of state. There’s still some in-state musicians that come in via import. And, like I said before, I think that’s a worrying trend in the long term. I think, you know, yeah, we have this super hot conductor right now. Yeah. People are willing to drive eight hours to come play, but once he leaves, what’s gonna happen with that? We’re gonna need to recruit more locals, and more state, Wyoming, musicians, to come and play and fill that gap. Unless a miracle happens and they still wanna come. But I-I think there’s a little bit of a trend in “integrate today, so why rock the boat?,” and it’s like-
Rebecca: Hmm.
Susan: You know, someday, it’s like Lynn Cheney said about Trump, you know, someday Trump will be gone and you’ll have to, you know, live- you’ll have to make sense of that new world, and, you know, someday Christopher will be gone, and, we’ll have to make sense of that new world. So.
Rebecca: Well this brings a question to my mind, but, you finish and then I’ll ask my question.
Susan: Okay, no, that’s all I had to say.
Rebecca: Well, I, my personal experience, I feel is revealing with the, Grand Teton Orchestra?
Susan: Yes.
Rebecca: I’ll start with my childhood where my musician mother, she was an ameteur but very enthusiastic, if there was something going on in Colorado, she made sure that we went to it. I don’t mean necessarily concerts, but, Dorothy Delay, the very famous violin teacher at the Juilliard school, did a master class, at, USC I think, in Fort Collins, and my mother- [The Julliard School of Music, a private conservatory of music in New York City]
Susan: Mhmm!
Rebecca: -and my mother made sure that we got down there for that master class. And, when you think about all the incredible music that was going on up in Jackson, at the Grand Teton Festival, and has for years, my mother never once said to me, “Do you know who’s soloing with the Grand Teton Festival Orchestra? Let’s get up there and hear them.” I don’t think she knew about that group.-
Susan: Hm!
Rebecca: -because I’m not sure that they did a good enough job of really publicizing what they had to offer.
Susan: Right.
Rebecca: Direct from the state.
Susan: Right. They might not have at that time.
Rebecca: Yeah. It’s probably different now, but I just remember thinking, you know, this orchestra up there, it’s in Wyoming, but is it of Wyoming?
Susan: Right. No, not at all.
Rebecca: It isn’t. Yeah, and, I worry that maybe the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra here in Casper is headed in that direction.
Susan: Mhmm.
Rebecca: Maybe it won’t end up that way. I hope it doesn’t.
Susan: I hope not. I, I don't think, yeah, I hope not. I hope not, ‘cause that’s, I mean, that’s kind of how the Cheyenne Symphony is, right? I mean it’s mostly a Colorado orchestra, and that’s, yeah, there just needs to be a place for local musicians. And, you know, the college music groups can help with that, but, you know, or you look [at] ... this community band that’s sprung up. Come out of that need, I think. We’re, I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but, besides the band that plays during the summer, there’s also another band that is a volunteer group, and they play a couple times a year, and it’s just community people that wanna play, and, are adults and don’t have a place to play, or, they’re students that want to play more. You know, and that’s good too, but it’s a shame that that group doesn’t have access to playing with other musicians, and kind of upping their game through playing with, you know, more skilled musicians. I don't know. Kind of rambling, but I hope you get what I’m trying to say. I, you know, I think there’s a need and I just, hope they figure it out and I hope they don’t eliminate- ‘cause, so the board may feel, they just want to get the best no matter what, but, I don’t think the audience feels that way. I would be very curious if someone would survey the audience. I think it’s still important to the audience that there’s people they know in the symphony. ‘Cause, I still get comments around town from even casual friends going, “oh, you’re playing in the symphony, I saw you,” you know, so it’s like I’m the minor celebrity to these people? I don’t know, I-
Rebecca: (laughs heartily)
Susan: That may be an extreme way of putting it, but, people like that. I don’t, even if it sounds better, I think not having people there that they know, would make them not have as good of an experience. I don’t know. You know what, we’ll see what happens.
Rebecca: Okay. Well, Thank you for being available for this. You brought out a lot of really important information.
Susan: Okay. I hope so, but I hope you, I hope you interviewed some of the old timers. I just really don’t know about that older stuff before the ‘90s.
Rebecca: Yeah. I try to snag as many of those people as I can.
Susan: Yeah, well, and you know, time-the clock is ticking. You gotta.
Rebecca: Yeah.
Susan: You gotta get ‘em.
Rebecca: Yep. Yep. I got a few of them, but, they’re kind of hard to find, yeah.
Susan: Yeah.
Rebecca: Okay, well, take care and, once again, I really appreciate your giving your time for this.
Susan: Sure! Sure. Okay, well I hope this was helpful.
Rebecca: Mhmm! Bye!
Susan: Alright, buh-bye!