John Kirk
When WyoHistory.org published its history of the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra in October 2021, the editors realized that there were many more people available to contribute their thoughts and memories of that organization. The American Heritage Center at the University of Wyoming was also interested, and offered to contribute funding to support an oral history project to capture more information on the history of the symphony.
The Casper College Western History Center transcribed most of these interviews. In addition to being available here, at WyoHistory.org, the audio files plus transcripts are also available at the Western History Center and the American Heritage Center.
Thanks to the interviewees for donating their time; to the Casper College Western History Center for transcribing the audio files; to Kylie McCormick for transcribing some of the audio files; to the American Heritage Center for funding the project; and to the trustees of the George Fox Fund, Inc. for donating the use of its Zoom account.
Wyoming Symphony Oral History Project
Rebecca Hein interviewing John Kirk, May 14, 2022
Date transcribed: June 28, 2022
Rebecca: Let’s start with your name and your instrument, how you came to play the instrument, your training, and so on.
John: Okay. John Kirk, cello, started in fourth grade, went through public school, played in junior high orchestra, high school orchestra, then I went to MSU [Montana State University in Bozeman, Mont.]. ... Played in the orchestra there, but I was in mechanical engineering for three and a half years, then I decided to be a cellist and I went to Missoula [University of Montana, Missoula, Mont.]. I got a degree in a year. Then I went to Boston University. Well actually when I went to Boston I took private cello for a year, from George Neikrug [Prominent American cello teacher]. Then I entered [graduate] school the next year and I was there for seven years because I wanted to stay with my teacher, and I did a year of studying in Paris with Nadia Boulanger the composition teacher. Then I did a year in ah, Munich [Germany] . Then I came back to the U.S. Is that good for that? I got the Master’s Degree at Boston University. The B.A. in Missoula.
Rebecca: That was University of Montana?
John: Yeah. It was with Dr. Florence Reynolds.
Rebecca: Yeah.
John: She was amazing. She had a Bachelor’s, Master’s, and Ph.D. in Theory, Pedagogy, Performance and [Music] History from Eastman. [Eastman School of Music, Rochester, New York]
Rebecca: Wow.
John: And she could play.
Rebecca: Okay. So let’s move on to how you became affiliated with the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra. Well, I guess it was the Casper Symphony at the time, but, go ahead with that.
John: Sure. I was living in Bozeman at the time and my sister, Barbara Kirk, was going to Casper to play, as an import to play, and Curtis Peacock mentioned ...[they were] looking for a cellist, for a new position called artists in residence. [Peacock was then the conductor of the Casper Symphony] So, my sister mentioned it to me and I, sent a a tape to Curtis, of the Debussy Sonata for cello and piano [A sonata is a composition usually for a solo instrument plus piano but can also be a composition for a small group] and then I, went to Casper for the next concert, and played in the section and met everybody there. [Claude Debussy, 19th and 20th century French composer] And then after that, I guess the board decided that they wanted me, and I came down that fall and started in with the program being artist in residence. The job was for me to play in the orchestra, teach at the Casper Community College, cello playing the Casper Community College Student Orchestra and also teach students there, as well as, teach privately in the area, and to do what they called “grow your own” because Casper was using, Casper Symphony Orchestra then was, as it was called, was hiring a lot of cello imports every concert. And so ... my job was to regain the cellists that were capable of playing in the symphony, and get them to play in the orchestra again, that was it, so I did.
Rebecca: Yeah, it seems like, you told me when I interviewed you for the article I did on the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra that you offered private lessons to anybody in the section that wanted them, is that right?
John: That’s right. Right.
Rebecca: Yeah, sounds like-
John: I required it. If they were going to play in the orchestra I required it. They were free.
Rebecca: Ah. Sounds like you worked pretty hard for your money.
John: That’s alright. (chuckles) I needed to, fulfill the goal, which was, reduce the amount of money that they had to spend on imports, which then, for me, was a method of negotiation because if I saved them that much money, at least I’d be worth half again that in a raise.
Rebecca: Yeah, I hope you got the raise.
John: Yeah I did, They really raised me every year.
Rebecca: Well good.
John: I mean, it was a negotiation-of course in general, you know, nobody wants to spend more, but they wanted, they wanted more, and each year I did more. I started a piano trio with Curtis and Betsy Taggart, [The instrumentation for a piano trio is violin, cello and piano] and we performed in the Casper schools, [and] in and around the state, and I also started a string program down in Rock Springs [Wyoming] and traveled there weekly during the academic year.
Rebecca: I didn’t know that. That’s cool.
John: It was. It didn’t last much longer than I was there. When I left the orchestra after three years they hired a couple of guys from Salt Lake and they were there for a year I think, and then they threw in the towel.
Rebecca: Hmm. I remember you telling me when I was interviewing you for the article I did, how you found Betsy. I thought that was really cool, the very tactful way you went about finding the best pianist that you could. Will you tell us about that?
John: Sure. Knowing full well that the orchestra and the community needed to learn about me and my position, the best thing to do was to give a recital, if not, or more recitals, so we did. I found somebody who was interested in helping with money and she ended up getting financial support from businesses and ... Hill Music back then was in Casper. I don’t know if it still is, and, so, I did brown bag, noon recitals of about, 30, 35 minutes, and I went to all of the pianists in the city that I knew that could play decently, and I asked if they would play, and paid them, and they accompanied me. And so, after we had the rehearsals and everything, the whole week was ready, set, go. They came and played and it was successful. People had- there were recurring, free clients (chuckles)
Rebecca: (chuckles)
John: And then, in that period I had a chance to meet with all of them and find who actually had the capability of playing, well, as an accompanist. I was looking for somebody who could read through and play a Brahms Sonata, [Brahms was a 19th century German composer] that’s if somebody can read through that then, and they can follow you and you can give and take. Pianists are good if they can just play their own part, but many of them don’t have the chamber music sense, and I found that with all of these people. Some had more or less of it, but Betsy Taggart had the most, and she was the most willing and the most available and had the highest level of skill. So it was easy, it was an easy choice. But at least by then, I asked everybody and nobody begrudged the fact that I had chosen her because among the pianists just like cellists, I mean, you can kind of mention a group of cellists and if they’re all standing together we all know who plays the best whether we like to admit it or not, and the pianists know that too so, they didn’t begrudge her getting the- being asked to play recitals with me, later, or even the piano trio recitals.
Rebecca: That’s great.
John: And of course it had a lot of publicity and that was all good. I always gave credit to the orchestra and tried to make it about the community effort and that’s always good- that’s part of your job as a musician in an orchestra. All roads lead to Rome.
Rebecca: (chuckles) If I’m not interrupting you I have another question.
John: Mhmm. No, go ahead.
Rebecca: What sort of material did you have to work with, local cellists, that were qualified to actually play in the orchestra?
John: Well, there were a group of people who had played in high school and had done fairly well in terms of cello technique and orchestral capability. And some of them could play up into fourth position a little bit, and some not, and some higher. [Positions, on a stringed instrument, are numbered according to which note the index finger is placed on. The higher the position a player can play at, the more advanced he or she is, in general] And, so, what I did was, well, what really happened at first was the, I finally talked them all into coming to the first rehearsal, and they did and I think they had, I got six of them, so, all of a sudden there was and there was one person left from the previous group so, all of a sudden there were eight cellos, and that was good- that was good show for me in terms of completing the first [part] of my job, but then, after the first rehearsal, it was obvious that I had to do more and so, the bowing was, I had bowed [marked which way the bow should be drawn (to the right or to the left) on which notes] my own part and everything, but, as standard through most community orchestras nobody ever does the bowing so-
Rebecca: (chuckles)
John: So, I embarked on a lesson, and I marked every piece of music and every part for everybody, and everybody had not only a performance part but also a practice part, and for the people-
Rebecca: Hold it-
John: And for the people who, when they had lessons with me, if they couldn’t play a fingering [a marking in the music indicating which finger should play which note] that I was looking at I wrote in some, don’t mean to be disrespectful,
Rebecca: (chuckles)
John: But I wrote in some fingering that I know they could play no matter what.
Rebecca: Right.
John: And that was successful and the second rehearsal everybody was playing on the same bow. And I can tell you, that makes a big difference.
Rebecca: (chuckles) mhmm.
John: (chuckles) And we all look like we’re all starting at the same part of the bow and we’re bowing and it helps, it helps ensemble [group] immediately, it was an immediate effect, it was so immediate that I thought “Wow! Maybe that’s why they do it!”
Rebecca: (chuckles)
John: The big orchestras, you know. There have been some orchestras where, like, Stokowski [Leopold Stokowski, best known for his affiliation with the Philadelphia Symphony Orchestra, and the Walt Disney Film, Fantasia] where they preferred free bowing but he was dealing with a different level of player.
Rebecca: Was there no music librarian whose job it was to copy in the bowings?
John: No.
Rebecca: Ah.
John: The music librarian’s job was to keep track of the music and issue it.
Rebecca: Uh-huh. Okay. So you built up the section with local people?
John: Mhmm.
Rebecca: Okay, Does that mean there were not any imports, or did you- did the orchestra still have to import some cellists?
John: Well, sometimes the local people had a life, other than the orchestra (chuckles) and so they would-
Rebecca: Right.
John: And so for a certain concert be out of town and then it’d be required to hire somebody, but by the end of the year there were no imports.
Rebecca: That’s really impressive. Okay, can you think of other things you’d like to tell us about your experience with the symphony?
John: Sure. There was a cohesive, [unclear], in the camaraderie in the orchestra, especially after the runouts or tours, that I hadn’t experienced with any other orchestra. People were happy to be with each other and we all knew each other as people, rather than principal trumpet or the French Horn guy that always burbles the note, or the oboist that never plays the correct A at the first blow, and we had to wait for the third one [it’s the job of the principal oboe to give the tuning note for the orchestra], and we were a group, we were more of a family, of course you know when you talk about orchestra families it’s usually a dysfunctional family and it’s spelled with two Ys.
Rebecca: (laughs)
John: But, yeah, it was fun. I enjoyed that. Casper wasn’t my favorite place to be. I arrived there on a day where it said “mild to gusty winds, 35 to 55 miles an hour” and I always joke with people saying that the Highway Patrol stopped me at the border and said he needed to remove all hair combing implements because the residents had never seen them before, it would frighten them.
Rebecca: (laughs heartily)
John: (chuckles) But, even so, I got used to the wind. You know, you just stay inside. You don’t go outside. (chuckles) And uh, but the place wasn’t really attractive but I really liked the people. All of them.
Rebecca: Yeah, you said that on the interview I did with you for the article I did. I’m wondering about the scenery and things like that with Casper Mountain right there. did that not influence your feeling about living in Casper?
John: We had a summer home in the Beartooth Mountains so it wasn’t all that impressive to me.
Rebecca: Uh-huh. I can understand that.
John: And in between the concerts I got in my car and I went to Red Lodge and spent my off-time there.
Rebecca: Yeah, I‘ve been to Red Lodge, it’s a wonderful place. Well, that’s rather interesting. Okay, do you have anything else to add about your time with the symphony?
John: well, I mean you’re talking about specific hours [rehearsals] leading up to a concert. You know it was, back then it was a Tuesday and a Monday and a Thursday, I think, something like that, and then the following week it was like, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. So, it was intense as it usually is, as [performance] time gets closer and then when all the rest of the brass and woodwinds would come in for imports and back then violinists were still coming in as imports and finally we would have everybody that would play the concert, they would be there and so progressively more enjoyable situation because the sound was more full, obviously. But also the, all the parts were being covered. In an orchestra, even in a community orchestra, you’ve gotta have at least one person in the string section who can play the part, and then the rest of it they fill in on the backside and that works for almost any group. But, professional groups, of course, pretty much play all of the notes, but in a community orchestra it’s a-a collaboration. (laughs)
Rebecca: Yeah.
John: I enjoyed the chamber music that we did. I gave I gave at least one or two recitals a year, either at Casper Community College or, back then we tried to, engender more support from the public and the business community. I gave a couple recitals at, then, was the American Bank. It was pretty prominent then. It was on the corner of Wolcott and Center? I can’t remember the streets. At any rate-
Rebecca: It would’ve been a numbered street, yeah.
John: Yeah, and, so people came, paid their money, and it was partially supported by the bank who got their name on the concert and there were programs, and whatever. That worked out pretty well. I enjoyed that, and local, [music store] Hill Music brought a piano over, which was great.
Rebecca: So I was just about to ask how the bank lobby would happen to have a piano in it. (chuckles)
John: It didn’t. Part of my job was getting there early and pushing all of the desks and chairs to the side to make room for the (chuckles) for the concert, so I was stage hand as well.
Rebecca: Yeah, well that doesn’t surprise me.
John: We, during the three years I was there we performed all-either, piano or cello, or, piano trio, all over Wyoming, and and in smaller towns, and, once we played down in Rock Springs we the C major, Schubert quintet. That was fun. [Schubert was an Austrian composer of the late 18th early 19th centuries]
Rebecca: Yeah, I think the musicians in our audience would like to know what sonatas and things you performed.
John: Okay.
Rebecca: And your various recitals?
John: Okay, sure, well during the brown bag thing I did mostly early Italian, sonatas, you know, nothing really difficult, but, would’ve been [a] Marcello [sonata], [Benedetto Marcello, 17th and 18th century Italian composer] I don’t think I played [the] Eccles. [Sonata by Henry Eccles, 17th and 18th century English composer] It’s been a while since I’ve thought about these pieces. I played [the] Locatelli [sonata] with Betsy. [Pietro Locatelli, 18th century composer and violinist] Let’s see, and then in recital I played the Brahms E minor [sonata], one time, and then I played the Brahms F minor-F major, [sonata] another time, as well as, we-we did, well, with the piano trio we had fairly extensive, literature. We played, the [Beethoven] B flat and the clarinet trio, and another one I can’t remember. Oh, the [Beethoven] Kakadu variations. And then, we [did] the [Brahms] B major piano trio and the C major. We didn’t really like the C minor, or there’s an A major too I think. We didn’t really care for that. And then we filled in with the, Baroque stuff on the early part. [The Baroque period of music was from about 1600 to 1750, and included Marcello, Eccles and Locatelli] There was a Handel sonata [George Friedrich Handel, German-British composer of the late 17th and early 18th centuries] for two flutes it’s been transcribed [adapted for an instrument other than the one it was originally composed for] And then, it was a Handel sonata, it was originally written for transverse flute [side-blown; the player holds the flute parallel to the ground and blows across the hole nearest to his/her mouth.] It’s been transcribed for two cellos, two violins, violin and cello, and that has, it’s a sonata in G minor. Played that, let’s see, I guess, you know, there was some Telemann and Vivaldi, [Georg Philipp Telemann, 17th and 18th century German composer; Antonio Vivaldi, 17th and 18th century Italian composer and virtuoso violinist] actually trio sonatas that we played so that we would have a smattering of Baroque moving on to more serious stuff where we would enjoy [a trio sonata is written in three parts: two top parts played by violins or other high melody instruments, and a bass part played by a cello] - you know we played a number of Mozart piano trios. Of course there was not an awful lot to do for the cello except for a couple of them, and then all of a sudden, I mean, you’re only playing in first position and then all of a sudden you have an extensive lick or a solo line that’s written purposely by Mozart, right across more uncomfortable areas of the instrument’s- [“Positions,” on a stringed instrument, are numbered according to what pitch the left index finger is placed on, on the fingerboard. First position is considered the easiest]
Rebecca: (chuckles)
John: -capability and so you have to- Oh- we played the uh, Beethoven Archduke trio. That was good. That was fun. Oh, and Mendelssohn piano trio. [Felix Mendelssohn, 19th century German composer]
Rebecca: Oh yeah. There’s like, that starts with the cello, with the opening-
John: Yeah.
Rebecca: -theme, yeah.
John: Yep. So, that’s- that’s what we played in the chamber music side of it.
Rebecca: So, you were in Casper for?
John: Three years.
Rebecca: Three years? Yeah?
John: Yeah. Right.
Rebecca: Okay, and, of course, I can’t resist asking you about performances of the Verdi Requiem. I can’t remember the movement, I guess it was the Offertorio? [Giuseppe Verdi, 19th century Italian composer. A Requiem is the Latin text of the Catholic Mass for the Dead ]
John: Yeah, with the solo? Cello? Yeah.
Rebecca: With the very exposed part. Could the section handle it or did you have to play it, alone, when the orchestra performed it-or-How did that go?
John: It was a section solo.
Rebecca: Right.
John: I did play, the last year of the last concert, I played, the played the William Tell Overture. I played the solo on that. [Overture to the opera, William Tell, by Gioachino Rossini, 19th century Italian composer]
Rebecca: Ahh. Yeah, that’s fun. All those, principal cello solos.
John: Mhmm.
Rebecca: Did you have a chance to play the Brahms- oh I forget which piano concerto, but it’s got a couple of-
John: It’s a C minor. Oh- excuse me, the B. The Brahms concerto and- Is it B?- I think so.
Rebecca: I can’t remember the key, I just remember it’s got a couple of extended cello solos. One of them has got reasonable territory and the other one is up a little higher.
John: Yeah. No. We never played that one.
Rebecca: Ah.
John: Dee-Da-Da-Da-Dee-Da-Dee-Da-
Rebecca: Yeah. That one.
John: Yeah. The big question right there is, you can start it down bow or up bow. [Terms borrowed from violin playing, where the bow actually goes down or up. On cello, the bow more often goes side to side]
Rebecca: (chuckles)
John: And I- even before YouTube, I was asking people, but, I saw it eventually- played at ... [the] Teton Music Festival [A summer music festival in Jackson, Wyoming]. The guys started it up bow. It really made sense so, I kinda just reversed my mind to that.
Rebecca: Hm. ‘Kay, well, Can you think of anything else you’d like to tell us about your time with the symphony?
John: Maybe if you can tell me a little bit more about what you would like to make the article about? The focus. I can help you fill in?
Rebecca: Well, this isn’t really an article, it’s just an oral history that’s going to be transcribed and go on file, at the American Heritage Center in Laramie as an Archive.
John: Oh, alright.
Rebecca: Maybe the transcript will be published on WyoHistory.org. Probably at some point it will be.
John: The transcript. Okay. (laughs)
Rebecca: I think I can- I think I can edit the transcripts. I think I have to go over it anyway because it’s a specialized subject, so.
John: yeah. So, the orchestra itself was going through some growing pains. None of them horrible, it’s just that, the orchestra had always had a manager that was the volunteer person. And then, the first year I was there we had a - maybe it wasn’t the first year, it was the second year- we had a paid volunteer, and then, and he was there the second and the third year. And then so, that was a good thing for the orchestra, as long as- The first guy was Ken Steiger and he was good. He knew how to do his job and to get lots of public support and I never had any complaints about anything. He got all of the logistics he handled. He was the operations manager at the same time. Arranged for all of these buses and tour- when we did tours and “run-outs” as they called them. And, and that was a big change, from the previous person who wasn’t doing a bad job at all, it’s just that, now, this guy was really on the spot doing, all, everything within a timely manner. So that was good. The second year I was there, the, concertmaster came in, Randy Tracy, and, he was a big, big contributing factor to making the violin section sound much better. He’d been playing first violin in the, Denver Symphony and then left to do a Master’s degree at Fort Collins [Colorado State University], but then moved up to Casper and his wife played bassoon really well. In fact she had- I-I played her- in her, recital at Boston University- she was studying with Sherman Walt of the Boston Symphony and then later she- after that she played in South America and then she played in the National Symphony [National Symphony Orchestra, Washington, D.C.]. And then, was back living in Fort Collins and she and Randy came up to, Casper and, so, it was nice having them. That was a- that was a great, collaboration. Curtis was really good. back then I had a girlfriend who played the cello really quite well. Actually played better than I did. And, so, he was all about getting what he called “twofers.” (laughs)
Rebecca: Right.
John: One being paid and the other just getting local pay. but, it was, it was a chance to play, and, anyway. That-that was good. I don’t think they ever got a- got another- I don’t know if they ever got another principal player or- in the, violin, or I mean, in the brass or woodwind area.
Rebecca: With the core musician idea?
John: Yeah. Right.
Rebecca: I don’t-I don’t think so. I don’t think it ever went further than concertmaster, cello, and briefly bassoon.
John: Yeah. Well, that worked for the community orchestra and, you know, for all of the reasons that there might’ve been for- with Curtis eventually leaving, he was really quite good at, keeping the orchestra together and, performing at a fairly decent level. I never- I never had any complaints about his conducting. I knew what he wanted. I didn’t always agree with what he wanted, but I-I knew what he wanted, and it was communicated easily. Of course you know, who- what musician agrees with any conductor? But it’s your job to follow him, so that was my job and I did it, and it was- he was really good at communicating that.
Rebecca: Yeah, I agree. I remember, I always knew where I was.
John: Mhmm.
Rebecca: -and I didn’t realize how important that very clear beat was until we had a guest conductor. I don’t know how he came to be there but, he couldn’t give a clear down beat, and I was absolutely at sea. So, um,-
John: Yeah. It’s the old rule when- when the– when the baton reaches the third button on the front of the shirt that’s when it starts.
Rebecca: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Rebecca: Yep. I have always appreciated that about Curtis’ conducting.
John: And he never got riled on the, on the podium. He never took tempos to-to-to an extreme just because he was excited. He knew the limits of the orchestra. He pushed you up to the point where- the orchestra up to a point where- he knew he could still be in control. The orchestra could still be in control.
Rebecca: That’s true.
John: So. So as far as, you know, conductors doing the whole community orchestra gig, he-he was kind of tailor-made for- cast in that way. At least during the orchestra rehearsals, and the concerts.
Rebecca: Yeah I agree. I’ve had conductors that, they had all sorts of bad habits, like stomping their feet. Um,-
John: (laughs)
Rebecca: -during, while conducting, and one- one conductor, he- he couldn’t refrain from bellowing the entire time he was conducting.
John: Oh.
Rebecca: Trying to sing our parts to us so that, the result was, the very first time we heard each other was at the concert because he managed to restrain himself then, but, oooh, that was- that was dicey. So, yeah. Curtis didn’t have any of those faults. He was, quite reliable.
John: I was, had a student who was performing a solo with the Anaconda Montana orchestra, and I was just there to hear that, and, they were doing some excerpts from showtunes. Among them was Fiddler on the Roof and the trumpet player didn’t come in on- and “If I Were a Rich Man”- and the conductor started singing the part, in the- (chuckles)- in the concert.
Rebecca: Ahaa. (laughs)
John: Which is, probably the most definitive example of what you’re talking about.
Rebecca: (laughs)
John: Well I don’t know. I think- I think you bled me dry here. I’m not sure I know anything else.
Rebecca: Yeah well that’s fine. I really appreciate your giving us all this time.
John: Sure. I mean, in the- in the back room and the- and the, and during the reception, one could say lots more about all the undercurrents. (laughs) But, what I’ve told you is the most positive, and- and really that’s what helps make orchestras continue.
Rebecca: I agree. Okay, well, if you have told us everything that you have to say that’s great.
John: Well if you have any other questions along the way you can, you can ask me and I’ll put it in an email form and it’ll still be under the jurisdiction of this, of the, nondisclosure, agreement that I had to sign. I don’t care.
Rebecca: Oh. Right. Yeah.
John: Then you can insert it in as part of the transcript and that’s fine. I won’t write anything I don’t want you to know. (chuckles)
Rebecca: Sure. Sounds good. Okay, well thanks a lot for giving us your time.
John: Sure. No problem. And I hope everything’s going well there.
Rebecca: Yeah. And with you guys?
John: Yeah. So who’s conducting the orchestra now?
Rebecca: Oohhhh, let me think. Christopher Dragon.
John: Oh.
Rebecca: He is, I think, assistant conductor in Denver?
John: Oh.
Rebecca: Maybe he’s, the conductor of the Denver Symphony. I don’t- not clear on that. But-
John: Oh.
Rebecca: -he’s imported for every concert. The orchestra now is pretty much all imports. It’s very few community people. Things have changed a lot. They changed when Curtis left and they started importing their conductor. They had to have- have a very compressed rehearsal schedule because the conductor wasn’t local anymore.
John: Mhmm.
Rebecca: This started in the early 2000s. So, they, people had to be ready for that and they had to practice for it and prepare for it, and I think, probably, some people got weeded out.
John: Yeah, it takes more-
Rebecca: So-
John: It takes more time to have your part ready rather than just going in and fitting which, you know, you couldn’t play already. I think it’s a big mistake to not have a resident conductor, and that’s the demise of the community orchestra people. We have, an import conductor in Billings and the only reason that has worked, frankly, is because the manager, the executive director has been so instrumental and he’s been the face of the orchestra and not the conductor. It doesn’t make people feel like they really have a- have somebody who’s there, vying for the musical soul of the city.
Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. And my- I don’t know if this is happening in Billings, or has happened but, in Casper, because the conductor is from Colorado, a lot of- he’s attracting a lot of grad students and other people that want to- want him to notice them so they come up here and audition, and end up excluding local qualified people.
John: Sure.
Rebecca: -Because they- they’re playing a little better ‘cause they’re practicing more and-
John: Right.
Rebecca: -And you know, and in the old days, the- the qualified locals would’ve been able to do a perfectly adequate job.
John: Uh-huh.
Rebecca: So. That’s been happening ever since-
John: Yeah.
Rebecca: -ever since they had started importing the conductor.
John: Right. Well, it also could- it also is, has to do with money, and or, a board that wants to say “okay, the conductor’s shift is there. Hey, here you are, you’re the conductor there, you fix it all.” And so they become a conceptual board rather than a working board. It’s not a new concept.
Rebecca: Yeah, I recall, when my father was on the board years and years and years ago, one of the things he said was, “If somebody doesn’t- if somebody on the board doesn’t do their job and get out there and raise money, we get rid of them.”
John: Yeah.
Rebecca: So.
John: Well people are having a hard time hurting people’s feelings these days. Also- also back then the board members were required to, support the symphony in a certain financial manner.
Rebecca: Right. They were expected to. Yep.
John: (indistinguishable)
Rebecca: I don’t know if that’s really true. I haven’t kept in touch with that.
John: It’s probably all over the map.
Rebecca: Could be.
John: Alright.
Rebecca: Okay John. Well thank you very much.
John: Okay. Email me if you need different questions answered.
Rebecca: I’ll do that.